“I’m Sorry.” If you attended Chicago’s Pride Parade, you may have noticed a few folks wearing shirts with these two words written on them. And exactly what were these people apologizing for? Well, for starters, years upon years of the Christian community judging us…
When I first got a glimpse of this story, it warmed my heart a little. It reminded me of a conversation I was having about Ryan Murphy‘s decision to add a Christian character to the Glee cast. His intentions seemed innocent enough–representing a variety of identities within our country–but one aspect really got under my skin. The character would “disagree with gay character Kurt’s sexuality”.
So you’re probably wondering–why did this bother me? It’s an entirely realistic approach, right? Sure, I guess. But it perpetuates this idea that “God and gay don’t mix”. There are Christians who don’t hate us. And while we’re at it, there are a number of LGBT individuals who are Christian. You may even be one of them.
Am I the only one who’s bothered by stuff like this? There’s been some criticism that The Marin Foundation (aka the people in the shirts) aren’t able to acknowledge that homosexuality is normal, healthy and natural. Some have even said that they take a “love the sinner, hate the sin” approach. But when it all comes down to it, what do you think of their intended message?
– Dewitt
To watch a video from the parade, follow the JUMP:
I hate to say this cause I might sound like a bitter ole queen. But, a small group of a organization that has tried their hardest to ruin our lives saying “I’m Sorry” is not enough to change the hate that is taught by their bible.
I use to be Southern Baptist… I Saw taking my own life as a lesser sin than homosexuality. I luckily survived. If that group wants to make a bigger impact they need tons more people. I bet the don’t support some of the things we are fighting for. So their message is mute…
“Love the Sinner, hate the sin…”
Guess what… that is still a message of hate and distaste for our community. I have seen people who said they are okay with us but then in the same foot.. Fight to make sure that we don’t have equal rights.
They want to show they support us then help us get the right to wed, the right to visit our loved ones on their death beds, the right to hold living will “kinship.” Support our right to donate blood, donate organs, adopt children, serve in the military….
Once I see them making these steps then I will see they truly “Love the Sinner”
I used to be Southern Baptist too. And agree with everything DCTiGGeR said.
My other problem with these folks is that they make everything about them. They always seem to want to put themselves front and center in the story.
They never seem to get it’s not about them, the world does revolve around them and that it really doesn’t matter what they think of me. Just like it doesn’t matter what I think of them.
I do find hard to get really upset about them. They’re cult members, they’ve been brainwashed and until they wake up to that fact nothing will truly change for them.
Correction:
The should be “the world does NOT revolve around them”
If the message was a sincere apology, then of course it’s a good message. But sincere repentance (as good Christian folk should know) means literally “turning around and going in another direction.” Are these folks acting in ways that reduces violence against LGBT folk, that make the lives of LGBT folk more livable, that reduces the isolation of LGBT folk, that makes LGBT folk full members in religious communities? If not, then it’s the same old stuff in a new container–a container that is meant to undercut the right to rage that we have against religious hatred.
It should be noted that Exodus International (the largest umbrella organization for ex-gay ministries) begins its national meeting each year with an apology for the church’s homophobia.
The Bible is a complex document with a lot of abstract passages. Unlike the U.S. Constitution, the Bible does not have a single, authoritative body which can rule on the “Truth” of a particular issue with respect to possible interpretations of relevant passages in the Bible.
As a result, everyone reads the Bible in a self-serving way. The Truth of the Bible for any given person is usually the one for which s/he was looking. So we end up with a bunch of different groups of people on all sides of an issue, each of which believing that they are supported by scripture.
Honestly, I don’t know if the Bible demands that Christians regard homosexual persons as sinners or not. In my mind, there is no way to know an actual truth on the matter. We can’t expect God to convene hearings, take testimony, and then rule on the matter (in this world at least).
You can only get the truth from the Bible as you want it to be.
It is not the Bible that has errors, nor is ir ‘their’ Bible. Itr is our Bible as well! The Problem is that a number of misguided individuals have taken a very few passages out of context and are using them to condemn the rest of the world, If they are wearing clothing of mixed fibers they are also sinners. We need to stop throwing out the good with the bad. The only thing that Jesus ever said was, love one another as I have loved you; and that means unconditionally.
The use of that phrase has always been sermonized to include all of mankind. However, Christian sects have used that as ammo, singling out homosexuals.
Appalling that these groups fail to realize that putting themselves above others is as un-Christian as the bigotry they preach.
Ok if we want to bring the bible into it. It meens insest is ok cause back to adam and eve they had 2 sons. that means the sons had sex with eve. Can the church exlain that one?
For all christians out there,,, judge anyone,, for who and what they are,,,
there is no way on this earth that you will convince me that you are a true christian..
love all,, hate no-one. now that is some-one who is true..
there IS no god for fuck sake!!!
you stupid skank assed americans need to fucking learn the church invented all that shit
and for any of u morons who believe in the bible – the NEXT LINE after gay sex being a mortal sin says EATING SHELLFISH is a mortal sin too…. so which ones of you condemn anyone who eats a prawn???
CUNTS!
I was marching in the parade and when I saw them it made me really happy. Now that I know a bit more about them I’m not sure how I really feel.
I do completely agree with you on the Glee thing. While a lot of Christians work really hard to put us down, I think it’s stupid that we have to go and do the same to them. Making the Christian automatically a bigot seems wrong to me. But it’s Hollywood and they’re all hardcore leftwing Jews so what do you expect?
Poonanny here N America one can worship as they please I am just curious 2 know what rock N what SKANK ASS country did U crawl out from under ?
lol at all the stupid ass messages on here. scott b is the only one who comes close to making a sense.
i should mention that by far the most loving, open-minded and supportive people i’ve ever met have been christians. the most bigoted, angry, insufferable people i’ve met have been gay.
I am one of those gay Christians. I do not find them mutually exclusive. I was raised Brethren (think Amish with cars) and am now Episcopalian, so I fall to the Christian left.
“Judge not, lest ye be judge” is a tenant of Christian faith unfortunately some Christians do not follow it, mostly those in the Christian right (Baptists, Fundamentalists, Assemblies of God, etc.) The main difference can be drawn from whether one believes in a literal or non-literal translation of the Bible. Literalistic Christians are going to condemn homosexuality based on the few out of context mentions. Most mentions of homosexuality in the Bible are based on Ancient Judaic law (which even modern Jews do not follow) or deal with prostitution.
One can also look to the Bible for stories supporting homosexuality. The love of David and Jonathan, as well as the story of Naomi and Ruth, are great examples.
Sorry for the long comment but I am going for my masters in Divinity to become a Vicar, so for once I know some of what I am talking about.
Rob, to answer your question first I must say that I view Adam and Eve as a story and not necessarily divine truth. However for those who do Adam and Eve procreating isn’t incest because technically they are the same person. Adam and Eve also had more than 2 children, even though Cain, Abel and Seth are the only ones mentioned in the Bible. Adam and Eve’s children mated with the sons of God (Genesis 6:2) also called Nephilim, whom many scholars believe are angels who took human form.
And in case Sodom and Gomorrah come up, the story is about being hospitable as is shown in the contrast between the angels visits to Abram (Abraham) and to Lot, not homosexuality. When would someone offer up their daughters to a crowd of homosexual men?
@poon: this isn’t an invitation for mindless atheist bashing.
If you understnad anything about epistemics at all, then you know that there is no test, no assay, no theory, no method, or any evidence that actually proves whether God exists or not. Science does not have the capacity to either prove or disprove the existence of God.
You may choose to disbelieve, but your disbelief is based on no greater state of evidence that someone else’s belief.
In this way, atheism is a Faith which is not substantively different than any other religious Faith.
Amen Scott B!
I am, as Quinton would classify, part of the Christian right. Although many bitter queens and other gays have yelled at me, “why are you supporting that church? do you know how Christians have treated me?” etc… my only goal is to be able to tell the story—our side of life as LGBT men and women.
I’m convinced that my friendship as a gay man with my Christian friends will help make things a whole lot easier for all of us. Obviously, I know that I’m gonna need a whole lot more gay people to help improve our ‘foul image.’ So, let’s love Christians like Christians are supposed to love us. Putting bitterness aside, let’s just embrace this very difficult task of understanding each other. I think that, when we’re just people-friends, neighbors, cousins, classmates-and we really talk about the issues plaguing our community, they’ll begin to see our side and fight with and for us.
In the mean time, even with all this gay hate that I see and feel, I still love Jesus. It’s a flawed church, but I’m getting over it.
I too am a gay Christian, and I’m convinced that an honest, open reading of the Bible shows that it does not condemn homosexuality. I’m also convinced that being gay has been a tremendous spiritual gift, making a far better Christian than I would have been otherwise.
It’s true that there are a lot of asshole Christians out there, which is truly sad. But there are a lot of asshole gays out there as well (and more than a few of them on MH). Condemning all Christians because of the vocal assholes is as unfair as condemning all gays because of the actions of a few of them.
I am also a Christian who believes with all my heart that God loves me ( even on days that I don’t love myself ) ..
I too am a gay Christian and can relate to practically everything written here. I wish there were a way (easier, better, any) to find other gay Christian men.
Sin is defined by the Bible and is a judgment used by Christians. Universally speaking therefore there is no such thing as “sin” only human judgement upon actions. If they really think that they can love AND hate (no matter what the target) then they aren’t living in LOVE. I couldn’t give a hoot if they love or hate. I can only generate love and tend to myself. Their hatred will come back on them because the Universe always seeks to balance itself. You get what you give so go ahead and hate us “sinners”, haters.
The sad (and ironic) fact that rightwing Christians ignore is that Jesus didn’t teach people to be judgemental. Most people who claim to be Christian, don’t really live up to the values Jesus exhibited.
I wish there was some parable where Jesus met a gay man. I’m almost certain that he did — and that he accpeted him. But I’d bet the Church would have burnt any reference to such a meeting — which is funny — as the Catholic Church seems to be run by some of the biggest queens in history (and I’m saying that as a practicing Catholic).
That said — prejudice against gays is finally on the decline. It will take a few more generations, though, before the majority of the haters are finally gone.
I’m with the poster who has said he’s seen more hate from the gay community than the Christian. I’m a far right Christian who struggles with homosexuality. I’m attracted to men. I believe I am going to hell. I know that will set off all kinds of alarms. But ultimately, that’s the way I believe. Deal with it.
I do think that the Christian circles have missed it by hating the sinner as well. I’m proud to say that my denomination is NOT that way. Homosexuals are loved, not hated. Unfortunately, we are a small denomination and the ones that literally hate homosexuals have a louder voice and get all of the attention. That makes me sad.
tam +1
Randal, keep the happy feeling! You saw it, you liked it, that’s what really matters (not what a bunch of commenters on a blog post say).
and Tigger, I hate to say it, but some of the hetero majority feel the same way about us, that “[we] always make it about [us].” Getting to equality is hard, but the further out we push to fall back on that middle ground, the more resentment we cause.
I was reading an article somewhere recently discussing psychological effects of change. Studies it cited concluded we all have a limited capacity to change our established routines, and once that capacity is used up it needs time to recharge. Like trying to kick a cigarette habit and fast food and get to work 15 min. earlier at the same time. Just doesn’t happen.
It feels like that, as it applied to everyone, it would explain why it takes so long to influence cultural change. People are more ambivalent (I really dislike “tolerant”) in the U.S. now than when you were growing up (unless you just finished growing up, then I suppose too early to make such an assertion). And things will be better in another n years.
Like with this military thing – it’ll happen, but saying “Do it now!” makes it about us instead of about the country as a whole. But it helps us feel like we’re making progress, so we make it all about us anyways.
Conclusion of this ramble is, then, two things. One, being the one who feels like it should be about them (when someone else makes it about someone else) creates ill will. Second, being the person making it about them, when others feel it should be about someone else, makes you an enemy (or someone to whom ill will is garnered).
no way. “gay christians” are either self-hating homos or self-hating atheists and don’t want to accept either.
Bitter much, gggonewild? say what you will, sunshine, but you’re only saying those ridiculous remarks to deflect your own self-hatred and by refusing to accept the fact that you are either living a very miserable life, or will die a lonely bitter man and be buried in a potter’s field. Have a nice day!
With regards to the acceptance by some Christians, i have to surmise that it really does,nt matter if they do or don,t.As an atheist i understand that some people need to believe in another world or super being, however i think this world is just dandy.Lets celebrate the goodness and diversity of humans here on earth now and not someone who may or not have lived 2000 years ago.There is too much tribalism…ie…which sect to you belong to, which country are you from…..where your from is pure luck and should be the least interesting thing about you.Er…thats it :0)
I think it’s foolish that you people condemn Christians for condemning you, does that solve anything? All Christians aren’t the same that’s like saying all gay men are peomiscuous and have HIV soooo stupid. I am a bisexual Christian man and I think all we need to do is tr to understand each other a bit more rather than condemn.
Tpsc85, I’m SO with you! You are dead on!
gggonewild, you spew more hate than I’ve EVER heard from true Christians! That’s a fact!
I agree, bajetoronto. I’ve seen so much hate from the gay community toward the Christians. I’ve always wondered how that makes the Gay Community any better than the Christians? Very hypocritical in my opinion.